Growing IT Management Capacity at Nonprofits with Jean Westrick

Carolyn Woodard talks with Jean Westrick, President and CEO of the Technology Association of Grantmakers (TAG), about why nonprofit technology management should be treated as organizational capacity. Jean argues that digital resilience is becoming as essential as financial resilience.

The conversation moves through why nonprofit IT funding is so hard to secure, what it looks like when funders get this right, and how technology providers and MSPs can be stronger partners. 

Jean and Carolyn also preview a white paper they co-authored for TAG and Community IT, Growing IT Management Capacity at Nonprofits, built on the idea that most nonprofit technology struggles are not about the software, they are about capacity - and that growing capacity is an opportunity for funders, nonprofits, and the sector.

Want to learn more? Register for the Community IT September 23 webinar, where Carolyn and Johan Hammerstrom dig deeper into these ideas.

This episode covers:

• Three reasons IT funding is so hard to secure: outdated ideas about overhead, funders treating a technology purchase as the finish line instead of ongoing management, and a failure to recognize that technology decisions are strategic, leadership decisions.
• Naming has power. When the Kauffman Foundation names IT planning, cybersecurity, and AI readiness as eligible capacity building expenses it sends a powerful signal to grantees that they are allowed to ask.
• How the Virtual CTO Program from TechSoup and Tech Impact gives small nonprofits access to technology assessments and long-term roadmaps at an affordable price point and connects them to a cohort of nonprofits on the same IT journey who can share resources and knowledge.
• Why every organization needs IT friends and translators, people who can connect a technology decision back to the mission it is meant to serve.

A first look at Growing IT Management Capacity at Nonprofits, the white paper Carolyn authored, coming from TAG in early 2027. 

Resources Mentioned:

• Technology Association of Grantmakers (TAG)
• Virtual CTO Program for the Nonprofit Sector, TechSoup and Tech Impact
• Capacity Building Grants, Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation
• Register for the Sept 23 webinar with Carolyn and Johan Hammerstrom on Growing IT Management Capacity at Nonprofits

_______________________________
Start a conversation :)

• Register to attend a webinar in real time, and find all past transcripts at https://communityit.com/webinars/
• email Carolyn at cwoodard@communityit.com
• on LinkedIn 
• on reddit/r/nonprofitITmanagement
• on the Community IT website

Thanks for listening. 

Transcript

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Carolyn Woodard 0:22

Welcome everyone to the Community IT Innovators Technology Topics podcast. I'm Carolyn Woodard, your host, and today I'm really excited to be talking with Jean Westrick, who is the CEO of TAG. Jean, would you like to introduce yourself?

Jean Westrick 0:37

Thank you so much, Carolyn, and I'm so pleased to be here. I am Jean Westrick. I um I'm president and CEO of the Technology Association of Grantmakers. We have over 400 members, mostly grant grantmakers, and we lead um uh opportunities for those organizations to connect, to learn from one another, and um and to deepen their commitment to advancing technology so that it serves our philanthropic goals.

Jean Westrick 1:07

So did we talk about like when the pandemic happened the first in 2020? I had been um I'd been on vacation actually for the two weeks before that I'd been I was in Argentina. So I came back on the Monday, and by Friday, that was Friday the 13th of March. Um I'll never forget that date. You know, it's like burned in my brain. But um,

Speaker 1 1:27 Speaker 1 1:27

So I'd arrived home earlier that week and I was asked, um, I was Director of Strategic Initiatives reporting to the COO, who's now the CEO, at the Chicago Community Trust, to say, we're gonna send everybody home for two weeks. Will you go and find out if people have the equipment that they need to work from home? So I like went around and talked to 100 staff members and said, Do you have a laptop? Do you what do you do exactly? You know, like um, and

Speaker 1 1:59

There were certain um things that we could not do from home. One of the things was cut checks. So we had 15,000 paper checks that we printed every year. And because of the security around the uh printer, the check printer, um, we couldn't just move it. And so what we had to do is we had to figure out like how we're going to reorganize our workflows so that the grants management team could come in on day one and prepare the award letters. And then on day two, you'd have the finance person put together the docket. And day three, you'd have the receptionists come in and get the checks and the letters and put them in envelopes and send them out. So this, and normally we do this twice a week, but we shipped it to once a week in order to um accommodate this new structure so that people could work uh safely.

Speaker 1 2:52

But um, it was a real sort of wake-up call that even an organization that at the time had four billion dollars in assets, there were a number of folks who did not have laptops and were not ready to work from home. Um,

Speaker 1 3:06

And so, you know, we we recognize that everybody needs technology to do their job, even those jobs that you think are are purely administrative, they actually need technology to execute mission.

Speaker 1 3:18

And this is something that was near and dear to my heart. So then I went um and was charged to develop a um a business continuity plan as well. And so um a lot of this is about the systems that we use in order to um really be able to do our work. Um, and our nonprofit partners are no different.

Carolyn Woodard 3:40

Oh, they have it even more so, I think, in some cases. Yeah, when you're more resource constrained and you think about a lot of, isn't it something like 80% or more of nonprofits in the United States are so small, you know, they're one, two, three-person operations, and you they're very resource constrained.

Carolyn Woodard 4:01

So their, you know, capacity to work without any IT support is really, you know, they do amazing things all the time. But if you're a funder and you're not considering that piece of their ability to do their mission, um, and the strategic thinking around the tech that they're gonna need to do their mission the effectively and reach the most people that they want to reach, that's just a huge blind spot in your funding, I think.

Jean Westrick 4:29

Uh 100%. I mean, I'm I'm ... not to pull on this this pandemic example too much, but if you recall in those early days, there were so many people who found themselves at food banks um who had never been to a food bank before. And have you seen some of the footage of like, you know, uh cars upon cars, like trying to get to food banks.

Jean Westrick 4:52

Well, most food banks are run um with largely volunteer staff. Those volunteer staff are often senior citizens who at the time of the pandemic were at most at risk, and um and and they didn't have technology. Those uh organizations that were able to do scheduled pickup and and touchless pickups, um, because they had some technology infrastructure would allow people to do that, were able to continue doing their mission.

Jean Westrick 5:21

Those that didn't have any technology and relied on a volunteer staff that was then now um in a compromise because of a global pandemic, um, were not.

Jean Westrick 5:31

And so this was really, you know, getting into this digital digital resilience is becoming as essential as financial resilience. Um, and it was a capacity issue and and an ability to deliver.

Jean Westrick 5:43

So, you know, really as I was thinking about this, is that what we're aiming to do is really um uh, you know, restructure the way we think about this. It's not administrative infrastructure, it's mission infrastructure, and shifting that sort of um that frame and that narrative, I think is really um, you know, it's gonna be really impactful.

Carolyn Woodard 6:06

I hope so. And I hope giving foundations and funders some of these examples and tools. So it's not just like, oh, you should be funding IT management or IT, but like how, how do you do that? So give some ideas and some things that their peers are doing that they might not be aware of.

Carolyn Woodard 6:24

I'll share an anecdote as well. One of our clients, the Academy of Hope in DC, they're an adult charter school, and they work a lot on workforce development and literacy with the DC adult population, people who want to go back to school or get a credential to get a better job. And they

Carolyn Woodard 6:43

We had been working with them on a plan for them to be able to support remote learning for their students because they have a lot of working parents. It'd be easier for them to have a laptop at home to be able to log into a Zoom class instead of having to physically go to the campus. So we already had that plan together.

Carolyn Woodard 7:02

And the summer of 2020, they went to their funder and said, you know, what are we going to do in the fall? And we've got this plan. And the funder said, if you can do it, we'll fund it.

Carolyn Woodard 7:13

So they had three months to get support for all of their students to be remote, and they opened in September with all of their students being able to have a laptop and work from home. It was very stressful for all of the staff.

Carolyn Woodard 7:29

But because they already had that roadmap and that plan, the funder was willing to work with them. And I think if they had come in and said, we want to be able to do this, we're gonna start talking to, you know, some technology friends who can help us out with this, their funder would have been really skeptical. But having that strategic thinking already in place, the funder was just like, let's do it.

Jean Westrick 7:50

Yeah, yeah. I think that you're absolutely right that this is um that this um IT management is organizational capacity. And we need to really redefine how we think about organizational capacity. It is that ability to make long-term plans and to be able to prioritize and be able to think about um creating resilience where you are and being able to deliver your mission in unique ways, despite some of the challenges.

Carolyn Woodard 8:21

Can I ask you why why can it be so hard for nonprofits to get funding that supports their IT needs, including IT management? So we've just talked about several examples where it seems like a no- brainer. So, why what are the barriers?

Jean Westrick 8:40

Um, I think it comes down to three things.

Jean Westrick 8:43

So I think number one, I think we've inherited this old, outdated idea of overhead. For decades, the nonprofit sector has been encouraged to spend as little money as possible on administration and infrastructure. And technology was often viewed as an expense that needed to be minimized rather than an investment that really enables mission.

Jean Westrick 9:04

And so, you know, while philanthropy has made true uh tremendous progress in moving beyond this overhead myth and move and leaning into trust-based philanthropy and those types of strategies, many funding practices still reflect those old assumptions. And so

Jean Westrick 9:21

The reality is that nonprofits today, every single organization is a technology organization, whether or not we we admit that or not. Because whether you're providing housing or healthcare, environmental advocacy, disaster relief, your mission really depends upon secure systems, quality data, reliable communications, and a digital infrastructure to deliver those services. Um, so so I think that's the first piece.

Jean Westrick 9:49

I think number two, funders often see um uh purchasing um technology um as the end goal rather than managing IT as a capacity. And so buying um licenses to Microsoft 365 or getting a new CRM is the easy part. What is much, much harder is um and more valuable, I would say, is someone who knows how those systems fit together, how to manage uh cybersecurity, how to govern data, um, how to prioritize investments, because you're not going to be able to do everything all at once. And so you need to be able to build those roadmaps. Um, and you need to be able to make decisions that are gonna actually advance the mission.

Jean Westrick 10:34

And so, you know, you have to have a good, you know, organizational strategy, and your IT strategy needs to match that. What that is, that's IT management. Um, yeah, so

Jean Westrick 10:46

Organizations are not failing because they bought the wrong software, they're struggling because they lack the internal capacity to manage technology strategically. And so those are those are two different things. Buying the tools is the easy part, managing it is the the harder piece. Um,

Jean Westrick 11:02

I think number three, uh, technology um has become whether or not we like it or not, or recognize it or not, it's it's not simply an IT issue, it's a leadership issue.

Jean Westrick 11:14

And so we're asking nonprofits to adopt AI responsibly, to protect sensitive constituent data, to defend against cybersecurity attacks, to comply with privacy regulations, to support remote work, to integrate all these increasingly um complex systems and platforms. And the platforms that have proliferated um tremendously in the last few years, where we're going in and out of a lot more systems than we ever were before.

Jean Westrick 11:43

These are not isolated technology projects. These are governance questions. Um, they're risk management questions, they're organizational leadership challenges. And so we expect nonprofits to be able to navigate um all of this without investing in the people on planning needed to do that well. Um, and

Jean Westrick 12:04

So we really need to evolve the question beyond um, how do we buy nonprofits more tech? How do we make sure everybody has a laptop? Um, and really thinking, how do we build organizations that know how to steward technology well? Um

Jean Westrick 12:19

That's gonna create the resilience, that's gonna create the ability to be opportunistic when when times happen, or when there are new um new challenges to delivering that mission and you're gonna need to um come up with a technology solution in order to keep um being able to serve your mission. Um

Jean Westrick 12:37

So I think it is it's really not about sort of buying the tools, it's about how to steward these tools. And that is something that is um much harder to do.

Carolyn Woodard 12:48

Do you have any examples of funders or foundations now that are thinking about this and taking this approach to help their nonprofit grantees be better stewards of IT?

Jean Westrick 13:02

Um absolutely. I think there, and there's probably more out here than than what I'm gonna name now. But um,

Jean Westrick 13:08

One example that really comes to mind is the Kauffman Foundation out of Kansas City. Um, and I'm gonna say this one because it's it it the innovation isn't is actually remarkably simple because it's not an innovation at all. What is happening is that Kaufman is explicitly naming IT planning and cybersecurity as eligible expenses in their capacity building grants. They've named it.

Jean Westrick 13:34

When foundations don't mention technology, um nonprofits can assume that they shouldn't ask for it. And so by naming that they support technology planning and cybersecurity and implementation of your CRM or AI readiness as legitimate capacity building investments, that shifts the narrative. That changes the conf that conversation. And

Jean Westrick 13:57

What um Kaufman is doing is they're sending a signal that says that technology isn't overhead, it's organizational capacity. And that powerful shift uh is is really important so that nonprofits know that they can ask for it. Um that's really important. Um I think um

Jean Westrick 14:18

I also appreciate that the Kaufman model does not separate technology from leadership. We don't think about it as a back office thing. It is really about you know building capacity and it's a leadership um question as opposed to an overhead question or something of that nature. So when they fund strategic planning and leadership development, they are also funding data capacity. They're also funding technology and how it can enable their mission. And those things now can reinforce each other.

Carolyn Woodard 14:49

We talk a lot at Community IT about the knowledge that is in the nonprofit. Like the people who work at the nonprofit know better than anyone what they do and how they do it and how they could do it. And so I think I love the Kaufman example that you gave because it helps to unlock that knowledge and feed it into the technology support that they need to be able to do the things that they want to do.

Jean Westrick 15:17

Yeah, sometimes you just have to name the things. Um and uh and and you know, language is a really powerful, um, is powerful. And so when we think about technology as overhead, we're gonna treat it as overhead. When we think about it as a mission enabler, we're gonna think about it differently. And so I'm I you know I'm I'm

Jean Westrick 15:36

I'm grateful for those examples that are just recognizing the true um potential that organizations who invest in technology are are more effective. Um and um and so we we wanna make sure that we're we're funding organizations so they can be more effective. And that includes technology.

Carolyn Woodard 15:56

Yeah, yeah, that technology can really unlock a lot of effectiveness. Yeah. Um,

Carolyn Woodard 16:01

What about tech companies and IT services vendors? So I think there are a lot of tech companies that have nonprofit um, you know, donation programs, like Microsoft has a discounted license. I know Google has discounted licenses also. Um, and we kind of I kind of feel like that's like

Carolyn Woodard 16:21

I don't want to say it's the least they can do because it is a huge benefit to those nonprofits, but it's kind of the first layer of what you can do. Do you have any examples of like a tech company that's doing going a little bit deeper than that?

Jean Westrick 16:35

Yeah, I think um, and this isn't this isn't uh so much a for-profit, but they do they do serve the nonprofit uh space, is TechSoup and Tech Impact um have come together um and they've partnered to create a virtual um chief technology officer program that's CTO.

Jean Westrick 16:54

And um what what isn't um particularly interesting is not just the service, but it's the model by which they're doing this. For many small nonprofits, um, and most nonprofits are small, you know, we're talking about 90% or more have budgets under a million dollars. So they don't have the resources to hire an experienced, you know, chief technology officer or uh even an IT director is simply just not financially viable for them. Um

Jean Westrick 17:26

So instead of um asking nonprofits to build that expertise internally, what TechSoup and Tech Impact have done is really created this fractional executive model, buying that um incredible uh expertise and that experience that um that allows them to do more. So, you know,

Jean Westrick 17:49

Organizations as part of this program receive a technology assessment to really understand what their IT maturity looks like right now? Um, how does this um line up to strategic planning? What kind of guidance can we give that organization around cybersecurity and managing those complex risks? What sort of advice can we give them about budgeting and making sure that there are ways in which we can scaffold the budgets in order to meet the needs and provide that ongoing expert consultation about how you can get more out of your technology, um, and then build that technology roadmap so that you can add your capacity over time and be able to scaffold the various activities in a way that is going to meet your mission now and grow with you over time.

Jean Westrick 18:37

I think that that is fundamentally different than um traditional technology supports of hiring an MSP. Uh uh a managed service provider is great for your help desk and provisioning your laptops and being able to manage your patching and your security um uh needs, uh, that sort of ongoing maintenance stuff that is really critical, but it doesn't provide you that long view of the planning that you really need in order to manage IT effectively. And so TechSoup, Tech Impact, what they're doing is helping organizations make better decisions uh, you know, for the long haul, not just fixing the computers that are broken today or or whatever the IT challenges of of the moment are that um would go to an MSP who can help with those types of things. Uh,

Jean Westrick 19:25

But it's really about you know moving, um, moving that maturity along. Um, we haven't talked about our white paper, but this is one of the ideas that comes into that is this idea about maturity comes from management. Um, and so yes, you do need to be able to be able to service and do maintenance and those types of things, but technology planning, governance, prioritization, you know, figuring out what your security uh program is, managing your vendors, um, those are all uh capabilities that are much um, they're more than just buying a tool. They're really about developing the capacity to lead this work effectively. Um,

Jean Westrick 20:08

And so a virtual CTO model really gives those smaller nonprofits access to expertise at a price point they could never achieve individually.

Jean Westrick 20:18

I think also, too, and I don't know if this is the the case with this particular model, is just that I think when you think about these models, it's more than helping the individual, it's about helping the cohort. And so there's lessons that can be applied across the whole um the whole program. So these small nonprofits, um, they share in their need for more IT capacity, but they're probably, I would assume, being able to share some lessons across, which will be able to get, you'll be able to scale that impact even further. Um, so I I love this idea of building um an ecosystem, ecosystem of digitally resilient nonprofits. Um, and then being able to scale that, uh, those innovations across that network is is really powerful.

Carolyn Woodard 21:04

Yeah, and I love that price point too, like you were saying, because if you wanted to try and hire a consultant, even just to do an assessment, it's gonna be $50,000, $70,000. So this virtual CTO program is much more affordable than that, and it starts with that assessment. So you get that as part of being part of the cohort. And like we were talking about earlier, this is something that your funder or your donors could fund you to take, be part of this cohort with the CTO, uh virtual CTO. So it's a you know, it's building on an expertise that your funder might not have, but pointing you towards something that is, you know, gonna give you a lot of benefit.

Jean Westrick 21:45

Yeah, I I couldn't I couldn't agree more.

Carolyn Woodard 21:48

I want to jump in and just make sure to mention that Community IT is an MSP, but we have, in addition to our help desk, we have the IT Business Manager role. Um, because we only work with nonprofits, so we get a lot of clients that come to us who have worked with an MSP that just didn't really understand nonprofits and the the resource constraints and and you know the thinking and the leadership that goes into it, or maybe you know, difficult to challenging. Um, so yeah, our IT Business Managers do that role of trying to look beyond the help desk, and figuring out budgeting and strategic planning and all of that for our clients. So there are MSPs out there that do that. But not most of them. No.

Jean Westrick 22:32

Well, it it it I think you hit on a very uh very important part is that your your partners, your MSP, become an extension of your team in a lot of respects. And so you want to make sure that that's a good fit for your needs and what you're what you're trying to do. And there is not a uh a one size fits all. You want someone who's invested in your success uh because they are going to be a critical part of your team. And so um at any rate, I'm glad that Community IT offers both the MSP as well as some of that strategic planning as well.

Carolyn Woodard 23:08

Yeah, we really look at ourselves over the 25 years of working with nonprofits, we really have realized that we need to partner with the clients. So um, you know, that is looking for a long-term partnership so we can really understand what they're trying to do and figure out the IT that can get them there.

Carolyn Woodard 23:26

So, do you want to talk a little bit more about TAG and about the white paper that we have coming out?

Jean Westrick 23:33

Yes, I'd love to. So um, so for your listeners who don't know uh who TAG is, uh TAG is the Technology Association of Grantmakers. We're a membership association that serves the philanthropic community. Our members are grantmakers. Um, and we're super excited to be releasing a white paper with Community IT.

Jean Westrick 23:53

The paper that we have uh that we have um drafted together is called Growing IT Management Capacity at Nonprofits. Um, so again, like you know, you you're hearing that IT management um and that reframe that this is more than just laptops. This is about managing your technology environment. Um

Jean Westrick 24:13

And that I white paper, I think, makes a really strong case that nonprofit technology challenges are not about the software or the hardware or the tools. They're about that organizational capacity. Um, and

Jean Westrick 24:25

So that paper will explore, you know, why IT management matters, um, what maturity at a nonprofit like IT maturity looks like, um, what are the practical um uh actions nonprofits can take, what can funders do differently, and how technology providers can be stronger partners in building that resilience. Um, so

Jean Westrick 24:48

I think the white paper will um will appeal whether you're a nonprofit executive, um, your technology leader, your grant maker who is uh looking to deepen your support and build capacity amongst your grantees, um, or your technology partner. Um, I think uh what what folks will leave with is really practical ideas for strengthening digital capacity amongst the organizations that are doing such important work in our communities.

Jean Westrick 25:19

You know, again, I feel super strongly about this, and I think that we just need we need to continue to to shape this narrative because it it, you know, I think through this process, it's giving me new ways to talk about this.

Carolyn Woodard 25:34

I love it. I love it.

Jean Westrick 25:36

Does that makes sense. It's just like that,

Carolyn Woodard 25:37

Yeah. And I I feel like this is, and like I started, I when I was writing the paper, I was like, I really want to start from a positive place. Like, what are the assets that we all have that we bring to this conversation and this conundrum before talking about like what's challenging, what are the barriers and all of that.

Carolyn Woodard 25:55

And I feel like that empowerment ... because I run into it over and over, like when I'm talking to people at at um at conferences that to fund funders, where it's just like there's a fear about like, oh, I don't, I'm not the IT person. So I don't know enough that I can, you know, like write that into the grant or talk to my grantees about it, or you know, like it's just something that makes people nervous. Where you're you wouldn't be like, well, I can't help you with your budget because I'm not a CPA, you know, like you're just like, I'll help you with your budget, like you, whatever.

Jean Westrick 26:28

I think reshifting this to like, you know, it's it's organizational capacity, yeah, not not software. I I mean, I I've managed a lot of big technology projects, and I'm an I I'm considering myself an accidental techie. I'm not, I'm not uh, you know, I'm I don't I don't program. I don't I'm not a you know a data architect. I don't that's not my work. My work is connecting the technology to the business need, right? What is the business need?

Carolyn Woodard 26:59

Finding the people to do the tech, like anything. You're like, I need that done. Who do I know or who do I hire that does it? Yeah, you know, yeah.

Jean Westrick 27:09

So if you're sit sitting with me long enough, you'll hear me say, IT needs friends and translators.

Jean Westrick 27:15

And you know, that is that's you know, I feel strongly about that. Is it's like, you know, organizations they they treat IT as a back office thing, and those staff don't feel empowered that they should have a seat at the strategy table.

Jean Westrick 27:30

And technology, when it's when it's wielded strategically, is powerful. It it unlocks a lot of impact that couldn't be possible without it. And so, you know, we want to make sure that we're building bridges across organizations so that that that that whatever technology technologist um or technology um knowledge that you have internally that you're tapping on effectively.

Jean Westrick 27:56

But then being able to translate it into the business need and be able to articulate it in terms of what your mission is. That is um that's not a conversation about which CRM we should buy. I I I don't have a horse in that game, but what I do have a vested interest in is making sure that organizations are able to serve their mission.

Jean Westrick 28:19

And as we, you know, as we sort of talked about this at the top of this hour, is that, you know, this this mission is living in a time where change is happening faster and faster. And organizations are going to need to develop a certain amount of resiliency in order to navigate some of this change that is happening. Things that you didn't plan for, um, whether it's a global pandemic or it's a natural disaster, those are the types of things that we need to be prepared for. Um and

Jean Westrick 28:50

Having an ability to connect how technology may be able to add that resiliency and add that capability that didn't exist, so that you can continue to serve the vulnerable people that you do every day with your mission without having to be dogged down by um outdated systems or ineffective technology tools.

Carolyn Woodard 29:11

Yeah. And I think in addition to that, we work in communities with constituents that expect technology to work and they expect to be able to do things with us as a nonprofit, you know, a food bank or an education nonprofit or advocacy nonprofit that utilizes technology that they're comfortable with.

Carolyn Woodard 29:32

And if you can't or don't, or you know, are doing something on paper still, the

Jean Westrick 29:39

The speed by which we're able to serve our community matters. Um and so technology can certainly make things more efficient in that way. Uh, but also too, I think um, you know, we want to have tools that are meeting people where they're at. I mean,

Jean Westrick 29:53

I'm a big proponent in talking about human-centered design and those tools with community. Um, because if that's how you're delivering your mission, um, you you want to make sure that you're actually solving the real problems that that you're trying to solve for. Um, and so, you know, designing tools with community instead of at community or for community, um, with it, with community makes uh a lot more sense in the long term because it's an extension of how you deliver a mission.

Carolyn Woodard 30:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Jean, I want to thank you so much for your time today. I loved this conversation. It's something I'm passionate about and you're passionate about. So thank you so much for coming to talk to us about it today.

Jean Westrick 30:37

Thank you so much. I I really appreciated this conversation too. Um,

Carolyn Woodard 30:41 Carolyn Woodard 30:41

Technology is a tool. It does not create impact on its own. It's up to us, the humans who are managing that tool. Um, it's it's the people, it's the governance, it's that thoughtful stewardship that um that really matters. And so if we want stronger nonprofits, we not not only need to invest in the tools that they use, but their ability to use them um effectively. And so um so I'm excited about this conversation, um, excited about this white paper and continuing to um help lift this up as an important issue.